Joe Watson: Jeff, why is Arouet the right organization in Arizona to lead on fair chance hiring?

Jeff Korzenik: Well, look, the mission is critical. We have businesses, large and small, that are in dire need of talented, hardworking, dedicated people to reach their true potential. And we have millions of Americans across this country—talented, hardworking, dedicated people—who those companies are missing out on because they don’t know how to integrate people with a conviction history into their workforce. Arouet is that pipeline in Arizona. Arouet is the key.

JW: Your book, Untapped Talent, makes the case that, to overcome the shortage of talent in the U.S. workforce, businesses must re-evaluate their aversion to hiring people with a conviction or arrest history—approximately 70 million Americans—and incorporate fair chance or “second chance” hiring policies. Is fair chance hiring as simple as companies having a checklist and writing new HR policies?

JK: For some businesses, yes. But overall, one of the challenges here is that each company has to calibrate this practice to their own resources.

I go to a lot of events where the sponsor has bought copies of the book for everyone in the audience because they want them to use it like a handbook. I know that if I’m handed a 284-page book, the likelihood of my reading it is small. So, what I tell audiences is, “Don’t read the whole book, turn to page 145 and read Chapter Six,” which is a case study of an Ohio manufacturer that didn’t want to do this, but had run out of every other idea. And in that 20-page chapter, you capture the essence of this opportunity, because it not only solved this business’ labor shortage, it’s allowed them to grow and it’s transformed the business. Because once you start thinking outside the box about talent, you start thinking outside the box about a whole lot of other things.

JW: Tell me more about that manufacturer and how they followed your advice.

JK: This company went pretty far. They set up a paid training program in an Ohio prison. They’ve opened a second facility in inner-city Cincinnati—which is a tough inner city—because they understand that’s where talent can be found if you know how to tap it. And so, I mean, just an absolutely incredible for-profit business story. But I also worry that businesses will look at these examples and say, “I’m not going to go there. I’m not willing to do this.” And so, I have to extend this careful message: This is what it can be, but it can also be as simple as just not discriminating against people with records in your initial review process. And don’t count a mistake of the past automatically against someone.

JW: It does seem like companies could have a big impact just by doing some very simple things.

JK: Yeah, for example, if someone’s been home for five years or 10 years and has been gainfully employed and clearly has stability, why would you treat that employee any different? That doesn’t require any real change or any investment but maybe a change in the process of who’s reviewing, how they’re reviewing, who approves things. And then you have folks like Greyston Bakery, who is practicing the open-hiring model. And the Body Shop is, and some others are doing that. So, you know, you have this spectrum of how you approach this, and companies have to understand that they can start in small ways.

JW: Every formerly incarcerated person that I’ve spoken to about Untapped Talent, who has read your book, has said to me, “I wish this book had been around when I was inside.” Because, they say, it would’ve given them hope knowing that somebody from the business community was saying these things and recommending this plan to corporations across the country.

JK: Thank you so very much for sharing that with me. I can’t tell you how much that means.

JW: Of course. That hope is so important. Sadly, though, one of the many ways in which people in prison are not prepared to re-enter the job market is that they’re not given guidance on how to convince potential employers of the benefits of hiring someone with a conviction history. A few I know mention that they are taught to pitch the federal bonding program, which ensures that if someone who is considered an “at-risk” hire ends up stealing from the company, the federal government will cover that loss by reimbursing the employer $5,000, or more in some cases. But is that enough to truly sway employers? Is it a selling point that job seekers with a conviction history should be pitching?

JK: Look, the federal bonding program is better than not having one. But leading with that is really a non-starter. One employer told me—and I don’t know if I wrote about this in the book—he said, “I’m not worried about the first $5,000, alright?” It amazes me that people who work (in corrections) and are trying to drive better reentry outcomes put such a focus on that.

I’m not saying that it’s not something concrete, I guess, that people can point to. But that’s not a very good selling point. The selling point is: People make mistakes, and the people who’ve made mistakes and reflect upon them tend to be stronger people who appreciate any opportunities that they have. We’ve all made mistakes, and those of us who are people of good character try to redouble our efforts to prove that we can give more to our families and to our communities. And that’s why people with records can be such good employees.